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The Impact (Formerly the Phenom)

I like the film, but is it really that impacting in the popular culture? Does it change anyone's views about homosexuality? Probably not...I'd still call it a phenom. A very effective one. Heck, I've recommended it to everyone, even more so to those who wouldn't go see it normally and probably still won't.

I hate the BBM rage. People with WAY TOOO MUCH TIME ON THERE HANDS.

Well, David, you found our little Board. Over 600 members and 50,000 posts in two weeks or so. Not bad. A good place to check out in detail if one wants to gain a little understanding of the impact BBM is having on people around the world.

Rage. Really? It has seemed like such a lovefest over at our site.

Seriously. Look around the other few hundred threads and you'll mostly find admiration. For any number of people. Sometimes you, actually.

In fact, when we finally started a thread to criticize aspects of the film, we titled it "Break from the lovefest--What did you dislike?" http://davecullen.com/forum/index.php?topic=144.0 and I thought the group might rear up to tar and feather me.

But it turned into one of our most popular threads. People really loved the film and book, but didn't love EVERYthing about them. And they were eager to come clean about the aspects that underwhelmed them. Makeup took an especially hard it.

Then, this Friday, on another lark, I started the "When good critics/pundits/journos go bad -- Who got it wrong on Brokeback?" thread. Yes, it was another chance to vent disagreement, but notice the underlying assumption of that statement: GOOD critics. People we respect. I had no interest in taking on fools: I wanted to address people we respected, who we thought missed the mark on this one. No hate there, just dissent. Healthy, hopefully. Though from the outside, I can see how it comes across kinda bitchy sometimes.

Much as I'd like to grab credit for some big social force of BBM rage, I doubt very much we're the source. Frustration does well up on our site occasionally, but I thought one thread out of a few hundred to express our unhappiness with certain elements of the media was reasonable. It only started Friday though, so unless you've seen an uptick over the weekend, I don't see how we can claim responsibility.

I do have one personal apology to make. I did take a cheap shot at your current column in the thread this weekend. I feel a little bad about it now. I really did feel the race was in kind of a lull and your column reflected that. Sorry to be so caustic. Or glib. Caught me on a grumpy day, and I seriously never imagined you'd be reading it. Just venting a little. I read your column every week, usually enjoy it, felt this was one of your not one of your better days. It annoyed me, and I said so.

And I bear a fair amount of residual anger from your earliest reviews--though I never thought they were homophobic. Not by a country mile. If anything, I wondered if you were TOO gay friendly, used to hanging with urban gays doing fine, gayguys light years from the front lines who provided a warped sense of what was still going on in middle America. Who knows, I could be way off--I don't know you, but I do know a lot of those gayguys. I live in Denver and it's a little different. I don't fear for my life, but I've had boyfriends who do, terrified to walk down the street holding my hand.

I had a real problem with your early entries, which we can discuss separately. And on a largely unrelated note, I have been perplexed by the Munich brigade calling it the favorite before anyone had even seen it. Not because of prior knowledge on my part, just the general knowledge that most art fails. Ambitious art, in particular. No great artist pulls it off every time. Munich could have proved good, fair, poor or excellent, but that Oscar-caliber excellence, that's just every once in a lifetime. It was wildly premature to assume it would be Oscar-worthy my view, which I believe I commented on your site way before before the unveiling. So I thought it odd that you clung to that sinking ship so resolutely.

Those are my problems with your columns. I overlook them, though they do annoy me. I generally enjoy what I read a great deal.

Sometimes we disagree. Sometime I get a little flip when I shouldn't. Definitely didn't mean to be sending a burst of rage your way.

Oh me...that should read over 600 members and over 10,000 posts in two weeks (although I bet we hit 50,000 posts by the end of January as the member base is still growing like crazy).

Wait... you mean that message board is real?!? Is anyone going to start a similar message board to discuss Munich?

You bet it's real. It's an incredible place (where bluebirds sing and there's a whisky spring -- see how obsessive we are!) where people are meeting from all over the world to discuss their favorite movie.

I'm all for the discussion of whatever movie floats your boat! Now, if I could only find one for "Star Wars"...

woh, Dave Poland vs Dave Cullen. Someone please throw in some jello.

BBM rules.

Brokeback is one of the most overrated movies I have ever seen.

>

Greenlight "Brokeback II: Ennis Strikes Back"! I definitely think there's the makings of a franchise somewhere in there. :)

Brokeback 2: Electric Bugaloo

Tuckback Mountain: The Larry Wachowski Story

(I keed! I keed!)

Hillary Swank playing Larry.

That website is kidding right???

If you say that the film has not become a Movement more than a film you obviously aren't paying any attention.

My sandbox is deeper than your sandbox.

I don't know either one of you. I'm merely a reader. I must thank you two Daves for contributing to my understanding of Oscar politics. More importantly, your blogsites sent me to the theaters to watch all the potential Oscar best pics.

Mr Poland, from what I gather from Mr Cullen's blogsite, there is much respect for you. There is very little rage and no one there has called you a homophobe. You must have been very good at Oscar predictions. I get a feeling that people are rooting for you to maintain your good record. But you seem a little conservative this year, which is understandable, esp. given last year's "Sideways" and "M$B". Is "Brokeback" this year's "Sideways"? You have a legit reason not to back the front runner now. You probably have your own "front runner" criteria. There is nothing wrong with waiting a little longer to see how things unfold.

Panda: You say that every day. We get it.

At the very least, Dave now should know how so many of us felt last year, when we just couldn't believe that simple little tear-jerker called "Million Dollar Baby" was being so highly praised. I, for one, kept expecting people to come to their senses, from my perspective, that is, and I was shaking my head on Oscar night when they didn't. Dave may be shaking his head this year, or, if "Munich" makes a late rally, he may be happy like I was, gosh, how many years ago has it been since MY favorite film won....

The love of this movie is being thrown in everyone's face. We get it. Thanks. It's just a movie. Now if it doesn't win the Oscar will your lives be valued less?

Want some tonic with those bitters, joe?

The only bitter ones are the BBM groupies who can't handle any criticism of their property (ie movie).

I'm sure Dave is going to cry if Munich doesn't win. Are you out of your mind???? He's an Oscar predictor! That's his job and in November it had to be the front runner. I just don't get some of you people. Your blind hatred is just comical. Do you even think before you spew your thoughts?

If BBM doesn't win the that Oscar the suicide rate in the homosexual community will skyrocket.

only thing i'll say about BM is that Oscar voters tend to vote differently from the rest of the awards voters. Oscar voters are generally less pretentious in their picks. IE - Crash has a better shot than a Capote, because it made a lot more money and was more accessible. BM is more of an indie spirits movie, but the press will push it to noms. Munich is a big question mark at this point, which is amazing considering its pedigree and subject matter. Oscar voters absolutely love spielberg, so if that film doesn't get in it's a real slap in the face, that they really didnt' like it.

This is one of the most unique races in years. The Oscar voters have to be scratching their heads cause the big, classic "hollywood" choices just aren't there. I guess BM is a western, so despite low budget, gay sex, etc. the epic scope helps it a LOT.

Calm down, Joe. You'll break your keyboard.

If you look at Dave Cullen's ''Brokeback'' forum, you'll find a specific thread where ''BBM groupies'' criticize the movie up and down for this and that. And there's yet another thread where fans debate whether the movie or the short story is better. No, the bitter ones are the BBM doomsayers who can't handle the fact that the movie is defying most everyone's expectations and winning awards and doing very good box office.

"The love of this movie is being thrown in everyone's face."

Can you elaborate what you mean by this, Joe?

Martin, I think that King Kong would classify in the big Hollywood film slot, but because the BO isn't there, it's not gonna make it.

Kong could have been there but it has no real awards credits so far and reviews were pretty good but mixed. If it had a may release it would have had no shot at all. Plus, I think voters feel like Jackson/etc have gotten their due by a longshot, and that is something they think about when making those check marks.

After spending some time on that site I have to say that Hollywood should start making niche movies about gays. If they'll support them all like they do this they could have a nice niche market there.

I wouldn't count Kong out of that last slot so soon. It still has a heartbeat.

"If BBM doesn't win the that Oscar the suicide rate in the homosexual community will skyrocket."

Joe, honestly, why are you so bitter about the success of Brokeback Mountain? When I was a gay teenager and Annie Hall developed something of a cult among straight people, I had no problem with it. I liked the film too, finding myself able to relate to it in many indirect ways. When it won it's Oscars I was happy for it, not growling about it. Many gay people are happy that this film is hear and speaking about our lives, and being accepted by audiences beyond the gay community, and you just spit out bile about it. Do you really hate us that much? Why? What did the gay community ever do to you?

Rufus: For many years there has been a strong niche market for gay films. You may or may not have heard of such films as Jeffrey, Longtime Companion, Mysterious Skin, Kissing Jessica Stein, and too many more to name.

Rufus, gay films ARE a niche market. I doubt that "Brokeback Mountain" will usher in a new era of big budget gay films (I not only doubt it, I am certain of it). BBM was greenlit with a small budget because the studio knew from their research what the realistic "break even" or "profit" point was.

There is a handful of gay themed movies and television series that I would call quality ("Longtime Companion", "Angels In America", the British "Queer As Folk"), but like mainstream cinema, there's a load of crap, too.

As for the guy who said this movie is being thrown in his face, give me a break. If you feel your space has been invaded, you know what to do: walk away.

Jeff and Hepwa are right. The "niche" market's been know and attended too at least since 1986 with the modest successes of "Desert Hearts" and "Parting Glances". What's considered remarkable about "Brokeback Mountain", is that it's clearly breaking out beyond that niche, if not to the same extent as, say, "Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon" did, in terms of breaking out beyond the Asian action film niche, at least beyond what one expects of a film focusing on a gay love story.

Thoe films you list as gay films were not successful at all.
Kissing Jessica Stein made 7 million.
Jeffrey made 3 million.
Desert Hearts made 2 million.

Not exactly success stories. BBM will be the first modestly successful gay movie. And it will probably lead to more gay movies which is why the gays actively supporting the movie are happy. The movie has become a symbol for them. Like the guy who's 80 yr old dad saw the film and now he thinks his dad finally understands him for being gay. It has gone beyond what the movie and how good it is. Which is fine. If it leads to more movies being made with quality directors and stars then I am all for it.

Let's be honest here. I have never even heard of any of those films. So, its not really a niche market. It's a nonexistant market. Which can change now. Maybe now it'll become like the horror industry. Get a lot of them with gay themes and they all do well week 1 and turn a profit. The real test for gay themed movies will be the followup to BBM.

Gay niche films make up a huge portion of the film industry. It's called porno.

Angelus and Rufus: That's why it's called a NICHE market. Because only people in the niche are aware of these movies and they aren't blockbusters. There are thousands of movies made every year that you haven't heard of.

Josh: There's more straight porn than gay porn.

Still don't care about Brokeback and will never see it. Does nothing for me.

It's worth seeing but I can definately see how somebody wouldn't want to see it. It's basically a chick flick and most men wouldn't be caught dead unless dragged by their ladies.

It's probably very good. Just not my cup of tea. Maybe when it comes on cable I'll catch it.

Lester, isn't this the tenth time or something you've said "Still don't care about Brokeback... Does nothing for me?"

Methinks the lady....

Lester, you post the same thing on every thread. Why do we need to know that on Saturday you're not going to see it AND on Sunday you're still not going to see it? Are you going to see it tomorrow?

Probably the 100th. Thanks for thinking and caring for me Danny.

I will not eat green eggs and ham. I will not do it, Sam-I-Am....

Jeff, I wouldn't want to argue with you about porn. Gay and straight. God knows you're the expert on that subject.

Lester,
You better be careful. The Brokeback Moutainers will be on your doorstep in no time. Picketing and protesting and begging you to see it and love it. The cult is strong!

Good one, Josh. You really made a solid point for your position.

Thanks. I don't quibble with the expert on porn. You go Jeff. You're the King.

Okay.

Obviously, many gay themed films are all flops, and many of the “best” ones (largely unheard of) never made any money.

There are some notable exceptions, of course.

Mike Nichols’ big-budget remake of The Birdcage managed a healthy domestic bow of $124M (hardly my favorite movie, but it made me chuckle at points).

Philadelphia, with a modest production budget in the mid $20M range, mustered $77.5M domestic (and cleared $200M worldwide).

Even the little Crying Game (made for a pittance) raked in $62.5M in the U.S. (and picked up an Oscar along the way).

Where exactly Brokeback may end up in the cinematic pantheon, I wouldn’t hazard a guess just yet. It’s making a remarkable run, and I’ve underestimated it at every point and from every conceivable angle.

In any event, there has been gay niche market for decades (quite a few decades for you porn enthusiasts). Brokeback is looking more like a cross-over film to me, but the release in still in its infancy.

In any event, it’s hardly the first “gay” film that succeeded in business terms, however you choose to define what a “gay” film may be.

Someone has to buy those niche films. May as well be jeffmcm, right?

I know what a niche market is. And niche markets look to make a profit. Those movies are not successful enough.

Kissing Jessica Stein grossed $7 million on a production budget of $1 million. Desert Hearts grossed $2.5 million with a budget of $350,000. Those are profitable films. In niche markets, they don't expect to gross hundreds of millions. They start with low budgets, get limited theatrical playings, and make a lot of money on home video. Again: look up the definition of 'niche' if you still don't get it.

I have a feeling Angelus wouldn't sneeze at even 10% of the profits for Desert Hearts suddenly appearing in his savings account.

I wouldn't sneeze at 10% of anything appearing in my bank account. Would you?

Those movies are not part of any gay niche market. There hasn't even been a gay niche market. Maybe BBM will lead to one being developed.

Not even 10% of a can of sneezing powder?

Bruce, what is your notion of the gay niche market that according to you does not exist? What would it consist of, if not a large number of cheaply-made movies that largely appeal to a select audience?

So Angelus, we agree. A movie that makes a profit and pleases it's audience deserves at least some respect? Even a gay one you haven't heard of.

Bruce. What are you talking about? Look up "Edward II", "Mysterious Skin", "My Summer of Love", "Latter Days", "Straight Jacket," "Leaving Metropolis," "Torch Song Trilogy" on indb. They exist, they make money, people (in the gay niche market) like them. Hell, even a lot of non gay film viewers liked the first three I list...

DannyBoy,
Name the last gay theme niche film to open up Number 1?

Heck, Top Ten?

I think they're a ton of gay films out there. But I wouldn't call it a niche market. Not one critic has ever used that phrase. They haven't even had national releases. I'm sure homosexuals really like them but they're not niche films.

How many times do we need to give the definition of the niche market and how it works, Joe? How hard is it for to understand that a profit is a profit, or would YOU turn down a couple million dollars if someone offered it to you?

You're starting to remind me of Otto from "A Fish Called Wanda," you know that?

That goes for you too, Bruce. Jesus. What the hell is YOUR definition of a niche market?

Guys, NICHE FILMS DON'T OPEN AT #1 and THEY DON'T USUALLY GET NATIONAL RELEASES!

That's the definition of NICHE MARKETS! As I asked before, please tell me what you think a niche market is, Bruce. PLEASE.

Somehow, Jeff, I think Bruce and Joe didn't exactly take film business classes at UCLA...

Am I the only one here that feels a fan site about a particular film is just that - a fan site? Grown men and teenagers, banding together to support their heros.

Right, Mongoose. And you don't see people frothing mad about Matrix fan sites or Star Wars fan sites.... Sad that they feel so threatened by Brokeback Mountain fan sites.

The problem and difference is you don't see too many romantic drama's with fan boy websites.

I think fan sites are great. Makes more people awar of movies and the industry.

Panda, you're right about the difference. But how is it a problem?

Just find me one romantic drama that has fanboy sites like this. I don't know if it's a problem but it does make me skeptical. I just feel that many will write off BBM as being a gay movie because of sites like this. It is going to have an effect. Many won't see it because they think they're seeing a gay movie. People probably didn't want to movies like Star Wars and Rings for the same reason. People are afraid of geeks too.

What happens if BBM doesn't win the Globe tomorrow? I'm guessing all hell breaks loose here and Dave Cullen's site goes bonkers.

Panda, I think people know it's a gay movie by now.
Star Wars and Rings still did okay even if people were scared away.

I thought they wanted people to know it was a good movie and not just about the gay thing? Going to really limit their market if they're just about the gay thing.

I think the filmmakers and the marketers are aware of their balancing act. I think they're also not assuming that 'good' and 'gay' are mutually exclusive.

I wonder if voters will vote for Brokeback to make a statement. Irregardless of how they like the film or dislike the film.

I'm sure you will have plenty of voters who want to make a statement and will vote for it. But I think there will be just as many that vote against it for the same reason. It will be interesting to see what happens with it in regards to voting.

hehe, I don't know about you but I'm blaming Dave Poland if BBM doesn't win the Globes tomorrow.

Munich wins from write in votes!

''If BBM doesn't win the Oscar, the suicide rate in the homosexual community will skyrocket.''

Joefitz84, that has got to be about the nastiest remark I've read on this board. By your sarcastic line of reasoning, does you also believe that ''if 'Munich' doesn't win the Oscar, the suicide rate in Israel will skyrocket?'' Geez ...

Wouldn't think a humorless guy like you could take it Wayman. Don't pull that trigger if it doesn't happen for ya!

Danny,

I really think you should take those film classes you took again and actually "read" and "learn". For it to be a niche market one would have to actually have films and reach a market. All the films you listed and gave me don't qualify. They qualify in the "profitless and forgotten" niche. But if you're idea of niche is movies that makes under 7 million and there are 6 of them released since 1982, than you are spot on, mate.

If Reese Witherspoon doesnt win; be on the watch for southern belles jumping off bridges too. Help them out Wayman. Be a hero.

joefitz84: Don't pull that trigger if it doesn't happen for ya!

Well then, gun going off. lol. Only a BBM fan would know what I'm talking about.

It is true. Can't criticize or make some jokes at the expense of BBM.

Joefitz84, I'm got a great sense of humor and made my share of ''Brokeback'' jokes, but I don't find making fun of people committing suicide as hilarious as you.

For the record, my take on the significance of the Golden Globes awards will remain the same, regardless of what happens tomorrow.

1. BBM is the only Best Picture lock.
2. BBM is not assured a Best Picture win.
3. BBM is not going to damaged by a GG loss.
4. BBM is not assured an Oscar win with a GG win.

As I have now repeated a dozen times or more, I am not sure Munich will make the Oscar 5. I think it has a better chance than The Constant Gardener, which I think is a better movie. And I think it has less of a chance than Crash, which I think is a worse movie.

And when the five are announced - and most of us who follow this think more than 70% of the vote is already in - a second season and new perspectives will emerge. It could well be that by Feb 5, I will see BBM as unbeatable. Or not. I dont know because I am not psychic... at least not that way.

It's nice to see you all beating the hell out of one another and being so pleasant about it.

Bruce, I think you really are convinced that there have only been a handful of gay-themed movies in the last twenty years and somehow missed The Birdcage and Philadelphia. If what you say is true about six movies since 1982, you would be absolutely correct that the 'niche' is non-existent. But go to any big-city video store and you'll find a Gay section (that isn't porn). Go to IMDB, look up 'homosexual' as a key word, and you get 1223 titles. Hell, look up 'gay cowboy' and you get 14 titles.
This world would be a better place if people realized how much bigger it is than their own little corner.

Brokeback is an argument that can't be won or lost. One reason is because there hasn't been a film quite like it. Part of this is the timing of it as the country is seeing debates on gay marriage as well as many other church and state divisions. Part of this is the quality, created at a moment when the major studios seem to be eschewing quality in favor of marketing. Perhaps BM isn't very good (I liked it), but it certainly is important as a touchstone into the debate.

Just as arguing on this blog will just calcify people's opinion into self-defense reactions instead of opening minds, I also think that watching the film won't necessarily open minds unless they go in with even a slight desire to have their mind opened. If you're straight and have a gay or closeted friend, this film might be the icebreaker, but if you don't know any gay person, this film might fade from your daily lifestyle.

The film doesn't so much make statements as much as it shows character arcs and situations. So one person's statement being shoved down their throat is another's story about lovers. Just depends on where you're at and not a definitive way of looking at this film or any film.

I want to clarify a misunderstanding some posters have. The BBM Board is not a "fan boy site" nor a site with only gay men posting to it. There are also a number of bi men and a few straight men (although I don't think anyone is asked to declare their sexuality in order to post). However, a very large number of the registered members are women; in fact the Chief Moderator and half the moderating team are women.

There is also a very successful BBM site at myspace (very cute and busy site), and a number of yahoo and other discussion groups.

And to add to the discussion about niche movies, I don't think of BBM as a niche movie. It was made as a mainstream film with a known Director and known actors. This movie is much like Birdcage, In and Out, and Philadelphia: it is a mainstream film with gay characters. Like those films, it will have a hefty box office (33 mill after this weekend and not yet open wide or taking advantage of any Oscar noms or possible Globe wins--I don't think the movie has yet reached its halfway point in its total box office take). Obviously, BBM has been embraced by the queer community, but that won't drive any film to a 75-100 mill box office.

Every movie right now has an Internet Forun for itself - It´s on IMDB, people. There, fans discuss reviews, scenes, actors, etc... Regardless of the genre of the movie. The most beloved ones, I guess, or the ones with the bigger number of fans, get some external fansites as well... In the case of BBM is particulary understandable cause the amount of trolls on IMDB willing to claim that homosexuality will take you to hell (Or worse) is very high.

i wouldnt say brokeback is a niche film. niche films aren't best picture candidates.

The fan site looks like a great thing for the fans of the movie and the movie itself. But from checking around and reading posts there it seems to lean to more homosexual issues and about that in general. I don't know the sexuality of anyone posting there nor do I really care. And obviously homosexuals are going to love and care for this film. It's just natural. I would be more surprised if there weren't fan sites dedicated to it and supporting it.

I don't think the BBM fan club people want to be called "fan boys" though. They need to come up with a new name for it.

I never heard anyone say Birdcage, Philadephia, In and Out, were niche films. Those did pretty good at the box office when they were released.

The Globes seem a little anticlamatic this year. There seems to be no hype or build up to them. Maybe the fact that it's on a Monday is doing it to me. Usually it seems like I hear much more about them.

The Globes on MLK Day? I hope that's good karma for Terence Howard.

I think niche is defined by intent and not outcome. BM didn't do a heavy marketing campaign, but the media saw a story they could latch on to and the public loves to love and hate it. Even though it seems to have become a mainstream movie, it was created as a niche film with a niche film budget and niche film subject matter. Sure the talent was top notch, but so the cast for North Country, Proof and other films that haven't broken out as much.

What niche is BBM?

Gay niche?

I thought it was just about being a good film with great acting and even better story.

Seriously, to explain it away as a gay niche film really does a disservice to it. You're going to throw it in with Jeffrey and Love Valour Compassion?

Yes, I think it is a gay niche film. How is that a disservice? Everyone has already argued that gay groups and women support this film. What has allowed it crossover to the public is the high level of quality. By calling it niche, no one is knocking its quality. By contrast, Bicycle's implication that niche films can't be of high quality and earn top awards is incorrect. If BM was marketed to the nines, had lavish junkets, and had a much higher shooting budget (even Million Dollar Baby had twice the budget), I would not call it niche. But that is Focus' specialty and they are good at it.

And by calling BM gay niche, I'm not saying that it is only a film about being gay. I'm saying that it wasn't a typical four-quadrant movie, but a low-modest budget film made for only one or maybe two quadrants by a specialty arm that is concerned more with telling unique stories than with a blockbuster bottom line.

Bruce wrote: "For it to be a niche market one would have to actually have films and reach a market. All the films you listed and gave me don't qualify. They qualify in the "profitless and forgotten" niche."

Hey Dave. When you're at Sundance next week, why don't you go up to Cooper or Marcus Hu or Bob Hawk and tell them you actually have people posting on your blog who say there's no such thing as a "niche market" of gay films and gay filmgoers. Report back to us on how long and hard they laugh at that.

Better yet, why don't you just tell these bozos what you know to be true, that there is a gay niche market that's supported people like Gregg Araki and Christine Vachon, and companies like Strand, Regent and TLA, with real money for quite some time now.

How have you backed up your "gay niche" ascertain yet? By calling me dumb? By your logic every film or every category can be a niche. Black, white, spanish, horror, sports, grandmas under 75, redheads, guys with polio, fans of liberace, etc.

That's not how I look at it. You can't be a niche market if there is no market. Unless your so inconsequential that 2 million is a success story. There might be a gay market. But I haven't heard of it. Just because there are some gay films doesn't mean theres a market. And yeah I'm talking about the only thing that really matters. The box office. When one gay niche film opens up in the Top 20 than you can call me.

Bruce, I don't think niche is strictly based on subject matter. Yes, some African American films are niche and some are not. I wouldn't call Four Brothers niche, because that's not how it was marketed and released (for the record, its budget is at least three times BM's).

No one has called you dumb (at least I haven't). And just because you haven't heard of something doesn't mean it doesn't exist. The film world, fortunately, is much larger than the top 20 box office grossers.

I'm just asking what films would be in the gay niche market. I got back four films that totaled 10 million in box office that seven people know of. I'm sure theres a gay market out there. But I haven't seen Hollywood hit it yet at all. Which is their loss because that could be a big market for them. As BBM is showing now.

Four Brothers could be classified as black niche, urban niche, gangster niche, young male niche, hip hop niche and mark wahlberg niche. What one is it?

From a pure business standpoint when you just market yourself towards one small demographic you lose out on a lot of potential business from other segments who could quite possibly use your product.

http://www.boxofficemojo.com/genres/chart/?id=gay.htm

Here's 175 gay/lesbian films from Box Office Mojo totalling over $1 billion in sales. Enjoy.

Four Brothers, as my argument was saying, was marketed to everyone and not a technically niche film. In other words, it was mainstream.

Hollywood's New Line Cinema, through their art house division, Fine Line, was releasing so many gay niche market films in the early 90s (My Own Private Idaho, Swoon, Edward II, etc.) that the joke around the industry, even among gay industry people, was that they should change their name to "Flame Line". They made good money off this market, one that eveyone in Hollywood knows exists but that Bruce irrationally refuses to believe in.

Now if someone doesn't agree with good old Danny boy he's "irrational".

Yes, business is hurt from only marketing to a select few. But movie marketing is expensive. At the indie level, you have to ask where the money will go so that it will be most effective. Hence the platform releasing. Crouching Tiger was niche, but so many other people liked it (strong word of mouth) that it opened wide and crossed over. Now another Ang Lee movie may do the same.

You can make the case that Four Brothers was niche too. Might have been mainstream but that was only after it was released. Like Crouching Tiger. Some hit out of their target markets. Which leads to big business. Every movie is niche before it goes out. They have to corner a segment of some/any market in order to be successful.

No, Bruce, it’s not about agreeing in terms of opinions, it’s about not acknowledging the existence of something that shown to your face. If you're presented with tons of evidence by a number of us, and you just pretend it's not there right there staring at you, or you use definitions of words that only you seem to have, in order to maintain some strange insistence that there's no such thing as a gay niche market, when EVERYONE in the film industry will tell you differently, that's when I call you irrational.

Here's some more evidence for you to ignore:

http://www.strandreleasing.com/

http://www.regentreleasing.com/

http://www.wolfereleasing.com/

http://www.tlareleasing.com/

Now which word are you going to mis-define this time to try to prove you’re right, "niche" or "market"?

Agree to disagree.

Niche is not defined (at least by me), by the film's outcome. It could do $600 million but still be niche. Why? Because it is the intent of the marketing. A $15 million pic with little P&A and a widely detested subject matter doesn't sound very mainstream to me. But if it hits $100 million, that won't make it any less of a niche film because the original intent of the film was not within the mainstream. By contrast, Titanic was not not not niche because it had a huge budget and it was designed to appeal to everyone.

So according to you it is only niche if the budget is small?

"http://www.boxofficemojo.com/genres/chart/?id=gay.htm

Here's 175 gay/lesbian films from Box Office Mojo totalling over $1 billion in sales. Enjoy."

Huh... what's on that list is really pretty subjective, isn't it -- even under BoM's own definition. (And some titles that clearly should be there are missing -- like Bedrooms and Hallways.)

I'm sure there are a lot of homosexual films in that niche market. That do well for their budget. But out of those 175 titles I have not heard or seen of many of those. Maybe they're only being targeted to strictly homosexual audiences. I don't know. I would hope not if they're good enough. Doesn't take much to cross over.

That's what's so nice about Brokeback's success. It proves to the industry there's interest in gay films beyond "the niche" (and beyond neutered out pabulum like "Philadelphia" and "The Birdcage". Films off of that IMDb list, like "The Opposite of Sex", "High Art", "I Shot Andy Warhol", "French Twist", and "Beautiful Thing" would please a great many non-gay audience members, if they knew about them and gave them a chance. (Think how sad it would have been if "Bound", "Monster", "Boys Don't Cry", and "Capote" hadn't been marketed outside of the gay ghetto, or the gay niche market, if you will.)

Do you guys ever post about anything other than how great BBM is?

Yes. Just yesterday, I posted about how great King Kong is. Sorry if I'm not too excited about Hostel or Hoodwinked....

There is excited and there is beyond excited. Brokeback Love goes into the latter. But I'm not one to tell anyone they're overdoing it about a movie they love. We all have ours that we love and could talk about all day. Everyday.

I post about a variety of topics, but if there is an assumption or idea I disagree with, I will feel like refuting it. That's a conversation. In fact, I could post about BM all day without even mentioning whether I liked it or not...it's just interesting from a historical and film business perspective.

And yes, budget is an essential component of the niche label because it will determine advertising campaign, how many prints you can make, and how many exhibitors you can get to show the film.

Terence D: The reason you haven't heard of most of those movies is because they're niche movies. And yes, they are mostly targeted to gay audiences. That's how it works.

Bruce: You can say 'agree to disagree' but that's like saying "I think the sky is green. Just my opinion. Who are you to tell me it isn't?" You have been provided with overwhelming evidence that you refuse to even acknowledge. You're free to think whatever you want, but please stop re-starting the argument as you have done.

Panda, do you ever post about anything other than Brokeback either?

Good point, Jeff.

How about you check every other thread, Jeff? But I wouldn't want you to actually check out facts or anything.

Start the countdown to the Brokeback Backlash. It's coming soon.

Okay, I'll check some other threads. How about the one about the 4-day weekend totals? Hmmm, you have one comment there and it's about Brokeback. How about the thread on the 3-day tally? Two of your three comments are about Brokeback. To your credit, you do have one reference to John Cazale in the New World thread.

Like I said. We'll agree to disagree. I havent seen any proof. I see a list of movies that 99% of the world hasn't seen and will never see. Some of my mates who happen to be gay haven't even heard of those movies or seen them. I trust my friends over you all. So, agree to disagree.

You can think the sky is whatever color you want Jeff.

Bruce you're amazing. Here's another question: there's a little thing called 'Bollywood'. They produce movies there too. Have you ever heard of any of them? Have any of your friends heard of them or seen them? It appears that based on your logic that Bollywood is also a nonexistent market making titles that nobody wants to see, not making any money. Is that consistent with your views?

Bruce, Bruce, Bruce. If you don't know something already, it does not exist. What's that the definition of.... An "open mind?" ...no, that's not it. A "closed door" ... no, not quite. A "shuttered room?" No...

See Jeff. This is how you come off as a sanctimonious jerk. Bollywood is a term for Indian films. That make money for an entire race of people. Actually they make more money than Hollywood does. So how can that be a niche market if they're making that much money? While they may not crack the US Top Ten List they do really well in their target countries and across the globe. Real well. And yes, I have seen some of their musicals. Unlike you I have an open mind.

Now gay niche films. Don't really do good anywhere. So, I really don't see the comparison. It's not even in the same league. But try and wow me again with your limited knowledge.

And going back to someones list of 174 Gay/Lesbian movies. It's a BS list. And anyone that reads it can tell. You can't sway me telling me that
Interview with the Vampire, Talented Mr Ripley, and The Hours are a part of some gay niche. If you think so you're fooling yourself. Because they're not. Half those films on that list wouldn't pass the smell test. They're thrown in there because they have one gay character or maybe a theme. That's the gay niche now? You want to ask the people behind those movies if they were specifically made to target the gay niche??? But hey that's too hard for a know it all like Jeff.

So, I'll say it again to you Jeff because you're hard of hearing and so thick it would take a hammer to nail it thru. Agree to disagree.

100 of those 174 Gay niche movies made less than 2 million dollars at the box office.

Bollywood films are mainstream in India but a niche market here. (By the way, there is no Indian "race" of people).

I just want to focus in on your position: since the dozens of gay films released to theaters and direct to video every year don't have a market and nobody wants to see them, why do they keep getting produced? Or is that the 'gay adenda' being pushed? Do you believe that Strand Releasing and the other companies listed above operate on a loss-leading basis?

That's the point, Angelus. Niche films don't make a lot of money and they don't have to because they don't cost a lot of money to make or market.

The only difference Brokeback Mountain will have is it will lead to the lowest ratings for Oscar ever and will make some homosexuals feel good for a while. I guess it would be like if Paul Rodriguez or Cheech Marin won an Oscar for me. I'd be starting up websites and trying to shoot down anyone who thought otherwise.

What's interesting is that through all of this, there is virtually no discussion of the movie itself. No details about how much the people who don't like it react to the storyline or the script or the performances. It's almost as if they haven't seen it and are attacking the film for...some other reason.

You wouldn't know how to discuss the movie if I drew you a map. You know how to chime in and pester people and not respond to questions though.

But Interview with the Vampire is part of the gay niche right??? Kind of skews the numbers when it comes down to it right? But I wouldn't expect you to have a reasonable discussion about it.

Who cares about Interview with the Vampire. That was a mainstream movie that happens to have gay themes. It doesn't invalidate the hundred of other gay movies that to you, don't exist. You're the one dodging questions, and refusing to acknowledge evidence. The Hours, by the way, is as gay as it gets and I don't know why you would think otherwise.

I will let this drop if you do one thing: go to tlavideo.com and tell us what you see.

You go on and on about gay niche and how much it makes and you say you can care less about the one film that accounts for 10% of the gay niche profit market?

Weird.

Because Interview with the Vampire is not a gay niche film. That's what I just said. It was released by a major studio and had big movie stars and is only tangentially gay.

I'm talking about the dozens of gay titles that aren't mainstream, that get limited theatrical releases or go direct to video. Titles that mainstream audiences, like Bruce, never hear of because they don't seek them out or are part of their marketing plan. Films that are made cheaply and don't need to gross a lot to make profits. How many times do I need to reiterate the same simple points before I realize that I'm talking to several brick walls who are actively refusing to listen?

So they only advertise to homosexuals? How is that possible?

If you rent a gay movie, the trailers in front of it on the DVD are also for gay movies. It's called living in a minority subculture. They have their own bars, too.

Let me get this straight.

In say 50 years you have had 174 Gay niche movies released. Like 2.5 a yr. And over 100 of them have not made 2 million dollars.

They aren't doing a good job of hitting that market if you ask me.

Well the first thing wrong with what you say is "in say 50 years". The boxofficemojo list's oldest movie is La Cage aux Folles from 1979. Most of the titles listed are from the 1990s.

The second thing is, for the zillionth time, these movies don't need to make millions of dollars to be profitable. I'm sure some of them lost money and some of them broke even, just like anywhere else in the film industry. But they would have generally been made cheaply enough that to gross $1 would make them successful enough. And this list doesn't include income from video or other sources which are where most of the income from niche markets these days come from anyway.

That was supposed to be '$1million', not '$1'. Sorry.

Panda, let's go back 50 years. When we had film censorship in this country, when taboos were not directly expressed, when most normal people didn't have the access they do today to make small indie films distributed through home video, cable, the internet, etc. I agree, they aren't doing a very good job, but there are similarly low budget, obscure films in the Christian niche market (even the Omega Code was a relatively big hit at its size) though the Christian niche represents a much larger audience.

The Utah ban on "Brokeback Mountain" has helped that movie go mainstream. Tomorrow it goes to 1194 theaters -- just 7 short of a wide release. [Wide is >1200, semi-wide is 601-1200].

Theaters that don't usually play upmarket pictures are picking up "Brokeback". That way people can see it for themselves.

Also, "Walk the Line" and "Capote" are being re-released to cash in on their Golden Globe wins.

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