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God, I wish I had bought an illegal copy of Pirates 3 instead of paying full price at the theater. That movie sucked.

I'm not sure I understand the "yick." Why is it okay if you're watching a pirated dvd of one filmed in a theater, but one that comes from an internal employee is suddenly dirty? Just curious, as I'm not sure I see the distinction?

I think he means the content of the movie itself.

yeah, David was not a fan of Hostel.

I work with a lot of low-income Hispanic children, and one of my students told me recently that he had "Shrek the Third" on DVD. I asked if he meant "Shrek" or "Shrek 2." And the next day, he brought in a pretty damn good DVD of - you guessed it - "Shrek the Third." He said he also had a lot more movies that were currently in theaters.

My question: If these pirated movies are mostly found in very low-income communities, how much is Hollywood really hurting? Would these people be going out and buying $11 tickets otherwise?

I'm not defending pirating at all, just wondering if Hollywood's estimation of the damage is not a little overblown.

You can't blame someone for not being a fan of Hostel.

I've talked to computer geeks who download. Theaters and the rest of the industry have got to work on the quality of the presentation.
Some areas have been really slow adopting digital projection-other chains like Galaxy keep expanding their amount of DLP screens.

Yick.

Ooo, I'm there!

back in the 90s, i knew a fella who would get bootlegs while working the NYSE floor, i remembering getting Pocahontas, Under Siege 2 and Big Lewbowski, all on VHS, old school style video camera in a theatre.

Now, the same fella, same NYSE floor, has been getting DVDs of considerably higher quality of current films, and I think he's paying the same price he did back then. Last one I saw he had was Happy Feet, around last Christmas. Looked pretty damn good, too.

Oh, Hostel 2 is yick. Got it, thanks.

555: You know, there was a rerun of a "Law & Order: Criminal Intent" episode last night about a guy who got killed for drawing police attention to a movie piracy enterprise. If I were you, I'd be careful who I'd tell about the NYSE fellow. Just saying.

i know a guy who downloads movies all the time, and goes every week to the movies and gives them 8 bucks, whether he sees a movie or not. Sometimes when we go see a movie, he'll buy two tickets.

he calls it 'pirate karma'

i think of it more like those carbon credits environmentalists boast about. He's trying to be 'bootleg neutral'

Uh...like you guys have never downloaded anything illegally in your life before. Just saying.

This is Hollywood's big elephant in the room. While Warner Brothers is trying to pretend the big issue are those evil camcorder patrons in Canada, the real problem are internal studio leaks. I was speaking with some friends recently and one of them even picked up a film in NY that was just the film -- no sound had been added/mixed yet.

Until the studios actually deal with their internal problems in a real way, piracy will not be going away.

Waterbucket: I can truthfully say that I have never illegally downloaded a movie in my life. (Unless you count those free 30-second previews from HotBabesInGlasses.com.) Now, I did download a tune or two from Napster back in the day. But believe it or not -- and I'm sure David will appreciate this -- they were Broadway show tunes. No kidding: I was trying to convince an incredulous friend that, yes, Jerry Orbach really had been a Braodway musical star way back before he started Law & Order.

Joe, And Orbach was great as one of the voices in Disney's Beauty and the Beast. It's a shame he's gone.

Personally, I don't enjoy watching shitty quality downloads of films. I imagine if you wanted to see a cheap comedy and weren't concerned with that it might be preferrable to download it.

I have a decent amount of spending money, enough that I can buy a movie I really like. Usually, I just wait a month and buy it used online from Amazon or Half.com. And call me old-fashioned, but I like to have the cases and box art and all that, not just a bunch of files on a hard drive or burned DVDs.

Now having said that, I'm not above downloading films that aren't available in the U.S., or are out of print. Same goes for television shows from other countries that aren't aired here, or have never been released on DVD.

If they're legitimately selling it, I'll legitimately try to buy it.

Also, fuck horror porn. I can't stand what the genre has turned into. Much like action films in the late 80's/early 90's, they're just doing it better in Asia.

Maybe (hopefully?) so many people have seen this Hostel DVD and won't go see it at the cinema, thus deflating the box office, thus putting an end to the franchise?

Please let that fantasy pan out.

Roth has already said there won't be any more Hostel sequels.

Way back in the mid-1980s when I lived in a small town in Connecticut, the youth director at my church used to get really good bootlegs of movies that were either then in theaters or not yet out of home video.

As it turns out, he had a friend who was a chef for a big-time Hollywood producer and got all his movies through him.

"Roth has already said there won't be any more Hostel sequels."

We'll see about that. If he doesn't want to do another, but the studio wants to, they'll just hire a different director. Business is business.

As for pirated DVDs, if the quality is bad, I don't see why people even bother. I rent them.

"Roth has already said there won't be any more Hostel sequels."

As Ployp said, I'll believe it when I see it (or, don't see it as the case may be). There's always some new guy willing to throw blood at the screen.

I think it's always been a misnomer that the studios themselves have massive internal problems when it comes to leaked DVDs. I mean, the editing bays at many of the studios have spy film-style keypad login's to even get into the systems in order to look at films in active use. There's security, security and more security.

But then the studio turns around and sends the thing to any vendor in the Santa Monica corridor or the Valley and all that security goes right out the window. Dubhouses, transcription services, loop houses - this, I have witnessed first-hand - is where a lot of the piracy of pristine quality material comes from and has for years.

And then there's the comment about bootlegs servicing primarily lower income areas. That may in fact be accurate for physical bootlegs sold on the street, but there are countless offices where there's "that guy" who downloads (typically using the office's fat servers) and will sell to everybody in the company. It's a stereotype, but it's often the tech guy. I worked at one company many years ago where the "tech guy" was selling an ENTIRE BOX SET of "The Simpsons" current through whatever season it was in (2000? 2001?) for about $20. I have a relative who works at Hewlett-Packard who gleefully reports on the various movies that - as they can afford a big home theater from Costco with surround sound - they can now see without A: paying for a babysitter or B: having to suffer through cineplex crowds and talkers.

He gets every last one of them from "that guy" at HP.

A college kid downloading "American Pie Presents: The Naked Mile" and a tech drone at a major corporation may not have that much separating them as individuals, but the institutionalized way that allows downloads to be sold in the corporate cafeteria is certainly big business.

The only question is - would those people have paid to see the movie anyway? Honestly, perhaps not - until home video. So maybe in that case, it's about the impact on the home video market rather than the theatrical window.

It seems to be something about the social aspect of theater-going vs their investment in equipment. I think that theaters are not going to be a growing field, not with television and especially with television presentation quality always improving. Theaters have got to stay a step ahead of home video, there's still going to be a market for people to see quality presentations.
I know it can be hard to keep up with the latest innovations, that's why it was hopeful to see some studio effort in getting Real-D and DLP out there. I can see a scenario with basically a window similar to the pay-per-view window theatrically and then some sort of I-tunes where you can pay a few bucks for a download. I just hope the movie business learns from the music biz.
Ironically, the closest digital projection to me is the Galaxy 12 in Monroe, WA which recently expanded from 1 to 5 to all 12 DLP screens-see what I mean?
Maybe DP can brave the I-90 to check out something there.

Me: I was lucky enough to see Jery Orbach in "42nd Street" on Broadway, and then interview him backstage, in the early '80s. (BTW: He was a class act on stage and off.) At the time, he had recently made a big impression as a cop in "Prince of the City." Little did I know at the time that I'd soon being seeing a lot more of him with a badge...

They're making CABIN FEVER 2 right now with a different director...

Who's Jerry Orbach?

David, this isn't meant to antagonize, but I genuinely have to ask:

Do you think Lionsgate seriously cares if you "turn in your copy" to them?

The film leaked. CHUD wrote an excellent piece about the issue last week. Right now, you can find that workprint version on pretty much every torrent site on the internet, and, yes, I'm sure quite a few street-side vendors have it as well.

Your one copy makes no difference at all to Lionsgate. All your post does is say (A) I bought a pirated copy! and (B) I told the teacher!

Are you going to go to any screenings of the film now so you can review the finished product? Or are you going to allow "Yick" to be the sum total of your critical output on the film? And if so, then how do you think your actions in any way aid Lionsgate in their efforts to curb piracy?

This is not someone changing the conversation so it's about you. You clearly included your personal actions in the post, instead of just saying, "There is a clean bootleg of HOSTEL 2 making the rounds now." So I think this is a completely legitimate question.

Drew how much longer until you tell us that Transformers is the best summer movie ever made? I can't wait for that review.

Why would you think I would say that? I don't think I've ever given a Michael Bay film a good review.

I've got my fingers crossed that the ILM stuff is at least fun, but if you think that was some sort of "OOOH, GOTCHA!" zing, you're drunk. I've said for as long as this film's been in development that I don't get the TRANSFORMERS appeal at all, and whoever the film is being made for (and I acknowledge there is a rabid fanbase), it's probably not me.

Eli Roth's quote in the interview on AICN re: 'gore porn' sums things up pretty nicely, I think.

jeffmcm - I do hope you're being uber sarcastic because Roth comes across like a complete dunderhead in that interview. According to Roth, the Hostel series is wasted on anyone less than the editors of Cahiers du Cinema or parisian cineaste intelligentsia. The rest of us schmoes and US critics are blinded by its gore and miss all the subtext. You see when fingers get lopped off - thats not fingers getting the chop - its an analogy for US foreign policy. Get it? This depressing reign of nihilism wrapped in a purty veneer should hopefully start to wane soon and eventually be washed away with the rest of the rancid flotsam. RIP Torture porn.

Saying "subtext" and "Hostel" together...I just got me some Chills.

Every text has a subtext, and Hostel is not nihilistic (it's not particularly 'purty' either, as Dave Meyers' The Hitcher or 300 were, to name two movies that trafficked in gore more shamefully).

Well, Drew... I asked if they wanted it and they said, "yes." I am not in their heads nor is it my responsibility to be so.

Me buying a copy and not distributing it is what I consider a reasonable choice for a journalist. Buying it is a gathering of information. That is the job.

In this case, I bought the thing because, yes, even though it had to be on the web if it was on the streets, getting in Seattle was another tiny piece of the puzzle.

And I offer studios the copies because, more in other situations where it is off the screen, they use the copies to try to figure out where it came from. And I was told once, by a studio, that my copy bought in New York actually led to an arrest. Maybe they were truthful, maybe yanking my chain. But my policy is now what I have indicated.

What would you have me do, Drew?

And you'll be thrilled to know, Drew, that I did end up watching the film in this illegal form. So you will get another chance to call me a hypocrite (I call myself out for it as well) and then, presumably, have the chance to tell me I am an ignorant old school marm.

But the short form is this... the film is not worthy of criticism. It is worth nothing more than utter contempt. This is not what I thought of Hostel or Cabin Fever. They were just crap. This film is truly disgusting on a human level. Lionsgate should be embarrassed to be releasing it.

Cabin Fever 2: Spring Fever -- Ouch.

So you're a Hostel fan jeff?

I read that interview and I agree JBD. I almost pissed myself when Roth started talking about how there is hidden intelligence that critics are missing.

I don't drink Drew. Excuse me if I don't take your reviews seriously, especially after you sit in the editing room with a producer and then write a rave review of the flick. Are you really surprised that people don't take AICN staff reviews seriously? You guys are so predictable. 99% of the time there's no point in reading them because you know exactly what the review will say. I have nothing personal against you Drew. I don't think you're a bad guy or an asshole or anything like that. I just trust your reviews as much as I trust, say, reviews by Jeffrey Lyons.

Waterbucket, Jerry Orbach wasn't in Brokeback Mountain so I'm sure don't care.

:P

(He was Lenny on Law and Order. Back when that show was good and wasn't a revolving door or major cast members)

Nice to know Roth has outdone himself with Hostel Part II. Although I think my eyes are bleeding from traversing the AICN page. Reading a review from the front page there I couldn't help but notice this startling quote:

"We get to meet the two guys who are going to be, eventually, coming face-to-face with these girls in the torture room. It is an excellent way to expand the Hostel universe. The movie spends a great deal of time with the two business men that paid a lot of money to torture these girls. Eli Roth makes sure that these guys are not monsters. It is a really nice touch that adds a lot."

THANK GOD THEY'RE NOT MONSTERS!!! Kidnapping and torturing young women can give off the allure of "monster", but it's nice to know Roth has found a way to not make that the way it is. thank christ for that.

man, that last reply had so many typos in it!

"I think my eyes are bleeding from traversing the AICN page."

For as many hits as it gets, it's one of the ugliest and least-professional-looking websites around.

Roth is a no-talent pig whose instant auteur status profoundly saddens me. The only thing worse is the millions of teens and young adults who happily lap his shit up, not only making him rich but also ensuring there will be even more of this rubbish to come.

Dave-I'll give you $8 for that HOSTEL 2 DVD...my bit torrent is acting up...

I don't believe, in the many years that I have been reading advance reviews on AICN, that, despite an occasional verbosity, I have ever read a review by Drew that wasn't honest and well-written. I would go further: his review of the 20 minutes of footage from the Cannes film festival of the first Lord of the Rings picture was absolutely riveting.

Oh, and yes: watching women being brutalized on screen is not my idea of a good time. Mind you, I am not a religious person, who, as Christopher Hitchens reminds us in his excellent new book, tend to enjoy that sort of thing.

I'm one of them Cadavra so you can thank me later.

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree about the quality and honesty of Drew's reviews Ian.

jeff, what is it you like about Roth and his movies?

Thanks for asking, it would be a long and complicated thing to write and I'm at work, but in short: I think his movies are more complicated than may give him credit for, and I find them intelligent and entertaining. It should be noted also that the primary victims of violence in Hostel were men, not women.

Isn't (or wasn't) Eli Roth dating ROSARIO DAWSON?

WINNER: Roth.

LOSER: Everyone posting in this thread.

Give respect where it's due, fatbodies. Bow to the altar of Eli Roth. If you in any way argue that he's not a superior human being to you, then you're fooling yourself.

For contrast's sake one could look at the Saw movies of Darren Bousman which are unrelievedly dumb and tedious.

SAW OWNS!!!!

JIGSAW 4 LIFE, BIZZATCH!!!!!

Wow...Drew reviewed 20 minutes of a movie the studio let him see while he was in Cannes...on a trip paid for by the studio and it was "riveting?" Awesome. I'm re-sold on AICN! No way there's anything shady going on there... ;-)

Ha. Funny stuff Petaluma. jeff we certainly agree about Saw and Bousman. Apparently the primary victims in Hostel Part II are women.

We shall see; either way, as Ebert would say, it's not important 'what' happens as 'how' it happens.

Sounds like David didn't dig Hostel 2.

Hey David, I'm glad you said it like it is. Roth's a hack. And, by the sound of it, a sadist. I guess the only way he can get some kind of artistic notoriety is by filming that kind of garbage.

It's not that he 'didn't dig' it - he never watched it out of unexplained spite.

To paraphrase Oscar Wilde on hunting: judging by some of these latter comments we are faced with the insensible in pursuit of the indefensible.

Yeah, and where's Oscar Wilde now, eh? Lot of good it did him.

The first hour of HOSTEL is like Apatow-level hilarious.

I was being sarcastic about DP, to say the least. Check out his review of the entire film on Hot Button.

Just read Dave's review. Wow.

I don't want to spoil anything, and I don't have access to DP's bootleg, so I opt out of any Hostel 2 discussion until this weekend.

I was on the fence about The Transformers until last night when they tried to shove the movie down my throat during the MTV Movie Awards. Now I'm definitely not going to see it. Advertising to let people know of the film's existence is one thing but annoying the crap out of everybody is just a bad campaign in general.

If boning Rosario Dawson represents the pinnacle of human achievement, then we're in worse trouble than previously thought.

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