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David --

What you fail to see is that this is just one more friendship that Obama has to denounce or dismiss. His career is littered with sketchy associations. Not one single person from Obama's past --neither family or friend -- has come out to speak in support of him? Why is that? Maybe because most of his friends he has had to disown: 1. Rev. Wright (his MENTOR for crying out loud who he could no more disown than he could his own grandmother -- until he had no other choice.)
2. Tony Rezko (The man is currently speaking with the Feds before his sentencing. Wonder what that's about?)
3. William Ayers (They're friends. That is not in question. Even Axelrod said so months ago. Now Obama is saying he wasn't aware of Ayers' past. COME ON!!)
4. ACORN (This one could be a biggie.)

The guy has an awful lot of questionable characters in his life. Where are the positive association from his past and why does no one speak up for him?

Did you just say Barack Obama has no friends or supporters? Such a person wouldn't be able to get elected dogcatcher.

Filmfan: another right-wing wingnut to add to the conversation. You know what I will type next. You potzer.

Still, a step up from 'fucking cunt'.

OK, so McCain seeks out the approval of a known Catholic basher and he's fine. Plus, Palin appears in a video telling a group, which her husband was a member of, of would-secessionists that they should "keep up the good work."
I could say her associations say she hates America, but I won't, because that's the mark of a desperate campaign, which McCain's is.

John K. Wilson has a great article up at Huffington Post:
Over Two Dozen Lies Refuted About Ayers And Obama

Figured October would be the month to get scrappy. Tossing Liddy, Keating, and dozens of RELEVANT others back in McCain's face is a hoot.

nice, mcmahon.....

No Jeffy. I can still fight, but he's a conservative. He's an international joke. That's what you call completeness, yo.

Why so serious?

Obama has the audacity to socialize with people who have *gasp* diverse backgrounds! Ahhh!! He has the poor taste to....*OMG* associate or speak with people who don't go with the flow! AHHhhh!!!

Everyone should only speak with people they completely agree with and people who have never said anything wrong and people who ONLY tow the American company line. Do NOT think for yourself or see what people of differing views have to say. Ever.

Now...is that American?

Jeffy: the beginning of Death Race. That's why!

Don: how dare you bring up the truth that way. Sssshhhh!!! You big righteous dude... you.

Didn't see it, IOI.

From NPR yesterday:

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=95442902

Regardless of his background, it was never a problem for anyone — including Republicans and Chicago's most powerful business leaders — to work with Ayers on Chicago's public schools. In fact, Ayers is widely respected in the field of urban education.

"It was never a concern by any of us in the Chicago school reform movement that he had led a fugitive life years earlier," said former Illinois state Republican Rep. Diana Nelson, who worked with both Obama and Ayers over the years. "It's ridiculous. There is no reason at all to smear Barack Obama with this association. It's nonsensical, and it just makes me crazy. It's so silly."

Nelson says her fellow Republicans "might snort when they hear the name Bill Ayers, because they know he comes from a wealthy family, they know he became a radical activist early in his life ... but beyond just snorting, I don't think anyone gives it another thought."

"I don't remember ever hearing anyone raise concerns or questions or concerns about [Ayers'] background," says Anne Hallett, who has worked closely with Ayers on the Annenberg Challenge grant and with Obama on education and other community and legislative matters. "And that included everybody I was engaged with," including prominent Republicans, and corporate and civic leaders in Chicago, Hallett adds.

"Not a SINGLE claim of even one meal together, one drink together, one trip in a car together... nothing."

Why would any of those things be on the public record? Had they eaten at the Olive Garden together, how exactly would we have found out about that? Who would they have to notify before Pictionary Night at Bill's house? Who is charged with following these people around, logging their activity? If they rode in a car together, should we EXPECT to know about it?

I'm not asserting that anything of these things happened; I just think the point I quoted is incredibly weak.

The point is the men were not and are not friends. They have not been "palling around together." See above NPR story.

Well McCain opened this can of worms.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20081007/ap_on_el_pr/mccain_iran_contra

"The U.S. Council for World Freedom was part of an international organization linked to former Nazi collaborators and ultra-right-wing death squads in Central America. The group was dedicated to stamping out communism around the globe."

There's a rather frightening story on Washington Post about a Palin rally in Clearwater, and how the ugliness of the McCain-Palin personal attacks on Obama is spilling over into her supporters (or perhaps it's the other way around, guilt by association and all ...):

"Worse, Palin's routine attacks on the media have begun to spill into ugliness. In Clearwater, arriving reporters were greeted with shouts and taunts by the crowd of about 3,000. Palin then went on to blame Katie Couric's questions for her "less-than-successful interview with kinda mainstream media." At that, Palin supporters turned on reporters in the press area, waving thunder sticks and shouting abuse. Others hurled obscenities at a camera crew. One Palin supporter shouted a racial epithet at an African American sound man for a network and told him, "Sit down, boy."

Full story:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/10/06/AR2008100602935.html

And Daily Kos linked to a writeup that claims that reporters, in addition to not being able to ask Palin questions, were not even allowed to speak to her supporters:

http://blogs.tampabay.com/breakingnews/2008/10/under-the-watch.html

Yup, it's getting ugly. From Palin's comments to the crowd, it sounds like she didn't even know who Ayers is before she read his name in a paper (or, more likely, was told about it in a briefing with her handlers). I mean, seriously, people. What's scariest to me is that there are people out there who actually support this most inept of political candidates to be in the White House.

Palin is doing a really great job of firing up the people who were going to vote for McCain no matter what. Good God, that is one sad, desperate campaign.

I do thank God for McCain/Palin because it's the visual nail on the coffin of this awful modern GOP.

The Daily Show had a cringe inducing piece last night where they visited Wasilla. For those who live in a leftie bubble, all their worst fears of "the others" were nailed.

At one point a Wasillian said something to the effect that anyone against Palin was "gay." Another big whiteneck (Alaskan redneck?) referred to his "colored friends."

Mysteryperfecta: By your standard, even though I have no photos of you actually at a Ku Klux Klan meeting, even though there are no eyewitness accounts of your attending a cross-burning, even though no waitress has come forward to confirm that you have dined regularly with David Duke, the fact that you have consistently slammed Obama might lead me to believe... well, you know where I'm going with this, right?

And look: Considering the current state of the economy, I would be one hell of a lot more disturbed by McCain's ONGOING relationship with Phil Gramm than by Obama's tenuous ties to a '60s radical.

Oh tonight is going to be fun. It's time to go JED BARTLETT ON HIS ASS! TAKE THEM DOWN! TAKE THEM ALL DOWN!

What do the Beverly Hillbillies have to do with this?

It's astounding that they still want to bring up Rev. Wright, given their own dirty hands: McCain's Pastor Hagee (the Catholic Church is the great whore), and Palin's Pastor Murfee (she joined him onstage after he said the Jews should be driven from the banking industry). Guys, you really, really do not wanna go there...

Jeff: you do not remember the commercials during early 2001? You do not remember season SEVEN? Seriously son... I said I said... you've got to get your viewing properties in order.

IO, I think Jeff was making a joke (Jed Clampett/Jed Bartlett).

"Mysteryperfecta: By your standard, blah blah blah..."

Really, Joe? Really? At this point, there's no public record that you're capable of deductive reasoning. By my standard, its not a foregone conclusion.

Seriously though, my original post needs no further clarification. Your analogy is invalid.

Let me give an analogy that should clear things up:

You get home from work, and ask your wife, "Honey, did we get any mail?" She responds, "No, there wasn't any mail in the recycling bin." Now, you MAY or MAY NOT have received any mail, but you're not going to find that out by looking in the recycling bin. There's no reason for it to be there. It's for soda cans.

Likewise, regardless of whether there were dinner engagements or poker nights or nothing at all, there's no reason why such engagements would be public record.

By this point, there's one conclusion that I think we can all agree on: David Poland, myself, and a significant number of people are starting from the proposition 'Obama is trustworthy and non-radical' and therefore evidence to the contrary - especially when it seems as minor and by-association as what we know about him and Ayers, is easily disregarded. Mystery is starting from a totally different proposition, and I don't want to put words in his mouth as to what evidence would be required to prove him as a 'non-radical' if that's even possible. Others are surely in the camp of 'Obama is an untrurtworthy radical' and therefore see the Ayers stuff as positive confirmation.

So I don't know what I wanted to prove by all of this except that nobody's mind is likely to be changed by anybody else based on preconceptions.

Mystery: Sorry, but you're beginning to sound like Criswell at the end of Plan 9 from Outer Space. "Can you prove that this DIDN'T happen?!?!?"

You get home from work, and ask your wife, "Honey, did we get any packages from Serbia?" She responds, "No, there wasn't anything from FedEx." Now, you MAY or MAY NOT have received a package from Serbia because you met someone from Serbia six times at an annual convention you attended every year for about five years a decade ago. And just because FedEx didn't deliver today, it could have been sent DHL.

There's no reason to expect the Serbian you knew to send you anything. There's no sign that you had a special relationship, but you didn't leave on bad terms. And it could have come from some other courier service, so why trust your wife when she didn't specifically rule out all international couriers. In fact, her specificity about FedEx suggests she was being coy... maybe it's nothing... but maybe she has a secret agenda...

Wait... a knock on the door. It's a Croatian with a gun...

But then the question is...why are you asking and waiting for that package?

DP- I cannot be any clearer. You're still claiming that there's no mail in the recycling bin.

The wild assertions you guys insist on putting in your analogies just muddy the issue. I think you presume (understandably, I guess) that by questioning your logic, I'm inferring that Obama may have participated in extracurricular activities with Ayers. I'm not. I'm just pointing out the obvious-- that your logic is flawed.

No, Mystery, we're making fun of you because you're making an inherently silly and totally illogical argument, then trying (and failing) to sound clever while refusing to admit it. In other words, typical right-wing B.S. I know you guys are getting desperate, but gee whiz, can't you do better than that? Christ, no wonder that even a freakin' Fox News poll indicates that all the smoke and mirrors about Ayers is having no impact on voters.

http://tpmelectioncentral.talkingpointsmemo.com/2008/10/fox_poll_ayers_not_hurting_oba.php

OK, NOW'S there a public record showing that Joe Leydon is incapable of deductive reasoning.

Typical Republican: Can't make his point, resorts to insults. You know, you guys aren't even funny anymore. You're kinda-sorta sad, actually.

I am so looking forward to your Nov. 4 wipe-out.

My original comment was apolitical, and I haven't deviated from it one bit. So why don't you take a shot at answering the actual assertion? Would/should we expect a meal, a drink, or a car ride to be public record? Would someone have made a physical or mental note of such a trivial event? If they did, would they feel it worth mentioning? If they did mention it to a reporter, wouldn't that reporter feel ridiculous bringing it up? "On March 14th, they were seen in a car together. CASE CLOSED." ?!?!?

Still, DP thinks the lack of such a claim is worth noting. I think its a bit of a weak point, from a purely analytical standpoint. NO politics, NO inference, NO allusions. This is why I'm balking at your purely political responses. Sorry I insulted you, but I'm awestruck that people are missing my point, by focusing on my politics.

mystery, are you implying that Obama and Ayers could have been really good friends and somehow we wouldn't know because they spent a lot of time dining and driving together (out of the public eye)? The man has spoken six times at the University of South Carolina in the last decade and there was no outcry. As the NPR report states, Republicans in Illinois have been working with him for years and no one objected. Is there really any smoking gun here? Is there any reason to believe it's not a desperate attempt by the McCain campaign to save a dying campaign?

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